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ST Arts
[Retired Droid]
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 816
Location: Finland
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2007-12-07, 16:50 |
Post #7785 |
Some notes, don't take them as a rule, they are my conclusions as a beginner producer, heh:
* work with 24bit or 32bit quality. 16bit quality is too low for good mixing and especially later - mastering
(my fault was when I worked with 16bit quality, no wonder why it didn't sound as clear as possible.).
* sample rate for CD quality is 44khz, so 44khz and 88khz are the best rates in working your song.
(there are people in two camp, others prefer work with 44khz and the other camp like to work in higher rates. IMO some vstis seems to sound smoother in 88khz than in 44khz. On the other hand- 88khz eats CPU massively.)
* good mastering tool/tools & using it/them wisely gives even more clarity to the mix.
(of course it doesn't help much when the song is badly mixed- even with the best mastering tools)
The most recent examples about my developement in mixing:
"Hover Over Icy Glaciers" - a little song, quite simply and short, and synthpoppish spacesynth:
Before: Hover Over Icy Glaciers (older)
Now: Hover Over Icy Glaciers (new)
"Chase" - pure synthpop:
Before: Chase (older)
Now: Chase (new)
Two new songs that I think are not good enough to my new "untitled" project (I'm working on some better ones), so I released them at mikseri:
Aces of Space (this is the second version)
Nemesis Conquer (note: the bass sound is my own, made with FM8)
Possibly not perfect mixing, but I think I might have developed?
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SX001
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 1318
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2007-12-08, 9:35 |
Post #7790 |
| ST ARTS wrote: |
"Hover Over Icy Glaciers" - a little song, quite simply and short, and synthpoppish spacesynth:
|
why it seems that this re-edit example has somewhat higher pitch?
yes, slight mixing difference. More details actually in both songs in high frequencies.
Also different mp3 compression distortion ;-) But yes, mixing itself is much better.
| Quote: | | Possibly not perfect mixing, but I think I might have developed? |
yep. So it is.
Yep, these were the examples based on VSTs, right? OK, thats nice, but how much will be the difference with hardware related synthesizer sounds where most things are in analog anyway...?
(song with 8 analog instruments and 2 tracks are digital - percussions/drums and another one is VST) and if to make it so...
basically would be there some noticeable differences if to use some sort of such method and what would be the difference?
sample 1 - all tracks summed in analog, (digital effect units with 96kHz mode converted back to analog) final sum recording is in 16bit 44khz.
sample 2 - all tracks recorded with 96kHz, 24bit, mixed digitally, FX digital, and final result converted to 16bit 44kHz finally.
sample 3 - similar like sample2, but 88.2kHz recordings.
sample 3 - just all tasks with 16bit 44kHz.
sample 4 - somewhat hybrid -- channels recorded as 24bit digital 96kHz, but summing is in analog, recording 16bit 44kHz.
?
... is there any audible difference between the results with mixing with task methods 1 and 2 atleast?
Or is there some rule perhaps that working with 16 bit recordings for mixing is ok until the channels amount to 3..4 or...?
(Soundcards which would be for these tasks are M-audio Delta 1010 and M-audio Delta 1010LT.) |
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ST Arts
[Retired Droid]
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 816
Location: Finland
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2007-12-08, 11:07 |
Post #7791 |
| SX001 wrote: | | Yep, these were the examples based on VSTs, right? |
Yes, mostly- the older songs are fully based on vstis (even the new versions). But "Aces of Space" and "Nemesis Conquer" has both pads and some sfx from Korg Microx.
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SX001
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 1318
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2007-12-08, 11:33 |
Post #7792 |
| ST ARTS wrote: | | SX001 wrote: | | Yep, these were the examples based on VSTs, right? |
Yes, mostly- the older songs are fully based on vstis (even the new versions). But "Aces of Space" and "Nemesis Conquer" has both pads and some sfx from Korg Microx. |
another thought that... in these re-edits in mixing the high frequencies were better, but I guess it does not matter so much.
For me bothers much more that 160kbit mp3 distortion which is very audible artefact in these tracks currently and it shadows quite much details. Its "out of bits" syndrome (most other people perhaps does not notice this low bitrate distortion I guess as had before such debatt). |
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ST Arts
[Retired Droid]
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 816
Location: Finland
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2007-12-08, 12:04 |
Post #7793 |
| SX001 wrote: | | ST ARTS wrote: | | SX001 wrote: | | Yep, these were the examples based on VSTs, right? |
Yes, mostly- the older songs are fully based on vstis (even the new versions). But "Aces of Space" and "Nemesis Conquer" has both pads and some sfx from Korg Microx. |
another thought that... in these re-edits in mixing the high frequencies were better, but I guess it does not matter so much.
For me bothers much more that 160kbit mp3 distortion which is very audible artefact in these tracks currently and it shadows quite much details. Its "out of bits" syndrome (most other people perhaps does not notice this low bitrate distortion I guess as had before such debatt). |
You are right, Aleksander! I just listened to my wave files of the same songs and compared them to the mp3 files, and there seems to be a difference. MP3 files sounds more digitally distorted somehow... this is tricky. It seems that when one problem is solved, another problem comes by surprise... I quite well have experienced what is to be a beginner producer... Something has to be wrong in settings in mp3 encoding, or Adobe Audition's encoder is crap anyway. Thanks, Alex, actually I'm very pleased that the problem was not elsewhere.
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LauriT
[Retired Droid]
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 1833
Location: Melmac
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2007-12-08, 12:23 |
Post #7795 |
ST Arts, try some LAME MP3 encoder and use its presets. Many programs have weak mp3 encoding algorithms and should be avoided.
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ST Arts
[Retired Droid]
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 816
Location: Finland
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2007-12-08, 12:55 |
Post #7798 |
| LauriT wrote: | | ST Arts, try some LAME MP3 encoder and use its presets. Many programs have weak mp3 encoding algorithms and should be avoided. |
Thank you.
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SX001
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 1318
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2007-12-08, 13:12 |
Post #7799 |
| ST ARTS wrote: | | LauriT wrote: | | ST Arts, try some LAME MP3 encoder and use its presets. Many programs have weak mp3 encoding algorithms and should be avoided. |
Thank you. |
pack with 256kbit if whenever possible then its mostly safe,
mode: stereo (preferred do _not_ use joint-stereo in most cases with analog stuff)
maximum frequency of transition: 18kHz (not more. too high upper limit will pack the high frequencies but it will make audible distortions in lower bands)
Also helps filtering a little bit before compressing if to cut smoothly the frequencies from 15khz to 20kHz down to zero). |
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Mark Vera
Master Droid
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 588
Location: Finland
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2007-12-08, 14:07 |
Post #7801 |
| I think 192kbit is fine. 256kbit is a bit overkill unless your song is absolutely the cracker super. 192kbit is also a bit forgiving when streaming mp3s (ie. from mikseri.net). And Mikseri.net limits to 160kbit unless you are gold member, so for mikseri 160kbit is better unless you want re-encoding to happen. Many mp3 sites do re-encoding if bitrates are too high. I think myspace might even use max 96kbit or something. Usually low pass filter a bit under half of the sample rate when encoding is good. Also leave a bit headroom to the top and not just limit it to 0dB. This should clear up the encoding result - assuming if the encoder is good, like LAME is. |
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LauriT
[Retired Droid]
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 1833
Location: Melmac
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2007-12-08, 14:18 |
Post #7803 |
I usually encode at 192kbit too (always using LAME) and the quality satisfies me.
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