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Post Post #7256
SX001 wrote:
price depends on components, not a brand!

Brand is a mark of quality. Asrock is a cheap and poor quality brand. Always had a problems with it. Just like with ECS. Low-shelf stuff for simple, home PC.
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Master Droid



Post Post #7260
Mobo is one of those components which is harder to replace later, so I really recommend getting quality one from the start and not try to save on that component.
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Post Post #7262
Krizz wrote:
SX001 wrote:
price depends on components, not a brand!

Brand is a mark of quality. Asrock is a cheap and poor quality brand. Always had a problems with it. Just like with ECS. Low-shelf stuff for simple, home PC.


oehhh, not again... (why this sentence seems so familiar.... "Brand is a mark of quality"...).

Come on! go to shop and if you look the chronos, trendnet, sweex ethernet cards, their price may vary but if they have the same chip: realtek 8139D on it... whats the really difference?!? the brand does not make it better, only adds price. And all these cards will work with one driver for all these families. Of course, Chronos is cheaper than Trendnet, trendnet makes many good things also, but if the contents is the _same_ ???


and now, mobos.
.... then the quality can be perhaps only about soldering quality becouse mobo manufacturers rarely make components itself. Smile whats difference between asus,abit,asrock,chaintech mobo which has the same chipset? nothing, except different additional options (mostly this crap audio since realtek card is somehow usable but...) which does not interest me, and none of them provided enough amount of free PCI slots.

well, I am just checking if the details -- __chipset__ and slot amount. Thats all at first.

intel chipset is not made by Asrock itself and also Abit, ASUS, etc dont make intel chipset itself.
Asrock just uses the available components. and so does Abit, ASUS, etc...

so, whats difference? I have "played" with different mobos all the time in the past and found out the conclusion that what counts is only the chipset and the componets nearby. (in other words the sticker intel does not make it faster. the chipset itself does it.)




...such names as AMD&Intel is exception of course which makes also itself but also, not fully all details and thats why not all components are by Intel or AMD.

plus, its quite hard to find from shop board with all stuff top class integrated options (intel ethernet, Promise or 3ware harddisk controllers) and thats why just chipset and slot amount is important to me and on that moment ASrock provided this kind of mobo (intel chipset, dualchannel memory configuration support, 6 PCI, 1 AGP).
Most these integrated options (realtek network, hdd controller, if to seek closely then you will find that if sold as separate cards, they are almost as the _cheapest_ solutions for mobo components... and on ASUS board).

Markvera:
ATA or SATA. yes this way its definetly simpler to go, but actually all kinds of options are possible since these controller cards available also as separate units also. Quite happy that its not so extreme yet and mobo&harddisk_controllers are not monolithic.
If not enough SATA/SCSI/ATA ports or there is need to read out older harddisks (or not having at all) then just add an expansion board and you have these ports (and these cards (these ones actually: Promise, 3ware, Adaptec) are actually much better than these integrated options on mobo (mostly for RAID there is used VIA 82xx chipset for RAID,but which is also sold as _cheap_, very cheap controller card Smile Smile its kind of proof what cheap components are used by mobo manufacturer and its so..so.. better to go the SiliconImage chip as its more working)).


[edit]
Last time when I saw 3com ethernet card as integrated option, was the compaq computer mobo only. But none of these boards which are sold in shop as "quality motherboard". Mostly there are just cheapest integrated options.
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Post Post #7264
Krizz wrote:
SX001 wrote:
price depends on components, not a brand!

Brand is a mark of quality.


another example about brands, what I have experienced when I got CDs: 3 years ago
comparison with 10 Platinum CDs and 10 Verbatim Datalife (not DatalifePlus serie) CDs.
These ones actually acted the same while writing. The factory where it camefrom was also _the same_. Only the sticker
was different. The factory was not Verbatim not Platinum, but CMC Magnetics (short strategy type media types mostly
fabricated here).
The truth is that Verbatim and Platinum dont make CDs itself, but they will buy from factory and if it happens the same factory the price will be put on thing as their brand allows and its aprox 20..25% difference usually.
And really quality which comes from separate factory, is having different price category also and not brand dependant.

And also with mobo... just compare the mobos with _the same_ chipset (for north and southbridge) and how much the price is dependant by additional componets, slots, and brand. But the chipset is what counts! not brand.
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Post Post #7279
Quote:
hen the quality can be perhaps only about soldering quality becouse mobo manufacturers rarely make components itself. whats difference between asus,abit,asrock,chaintech mobo which has the same chipset? nothing, except different additional options (mostly this crap audio since realtek card is somehow usable but...)

You are wrong here. Mobo is not only chipset, not only harddisk controller, USB controller (that one IS important often), audio and network interface. Mobo is also made of capacitors, resistors and other this kind of elements (you're electronics man, you know the stuff). For example, Gigabyte is known to use solid capacitors instead of ordinary electrolyte ones, which improves mobo's stability and resistance of high temperatures. That makes Gigabyte better than Asrock which utilises only electrolyte capacitors, since they are cheaper. More expensive mobos of Asus, Abit, MSI also utilise solid capacitors.
Besides, I suppose there's some kind of quality control component is run through before being attached to a mobo - some are worse, some are better. Why did Asus made a separate branch brand called Asrock? Simple: to assemble cheap, multimedia mobos for home users who don't need a cutting-edge, stable and efficient mobo. Why to throw away those components which are just below the bottom line of quality control requirements? So they came to conclusion they will assemble cheap mobos, but not to spoil the brand Asus with low-quality stuff, they made up a new brand. It doesn't mean those mobos are that bad - some of them are actually as good as Asus, but with Asrock, there is a much higher chance the mobo will fail at some moment of its use.
I say don't gamble with your system which you require to be efficient and stable - buy a quality mobo.
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Post Post #7282
dual channel memory is not in many "cheapest home multimedia mobo".

yes, I know it what you wrote, but I dont care in any way about the integrated stuff since on quality mobos these integrations are also made on cheap components (Realtek, VIA) and I have much better cards to replace out these integrated items. Dont care about onboard audio but it is as forced item on it.
Fortunately my ASrock has good capacitors, and no need for so many integrated stuff anyway for board and I dont use these integrated things,

But ok, can you in this case suggest me a motherboard what you think as quality one, but which has

intel chipset, DDR or DDR2 memory support (dual channel mode!), and atleast 5PCI bus?

only few narrative things -- PCI bus amount. and most important one, since I am not at all interested to buy again each time the soundcards when new bus type is out.


so far the specific ASRock fitted in this criteria (also dual channel memory mode).

and so far this "quality motherboard" term gets too fuzzy, can you atleast point out some things which will identify it as "quality mobo"...? Just curiosity, since this term is quite fuzzy and it cant be described as integrated items amount.


actually, there are much better expansion cards than the integrated items on these mentioned brands you named (Asus, Abit, Chaintech..) and mobos which have expensive integrated additional components for ethernet (and SCSI) is reserved for server boards and brand name computer mobos which are not so often for sale from the shop.
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Post Post #7284
SX001 wrote:
dual channel memory is not in many "cheapest home multimedia mobo".

Dual channel presence depends only on a chipset, not a brand.

Quote:
yes, I know it what you wrote, but I dont care in any way about the integrated stuff since on quality mobos these integrations are also made on cheap components (Realtek, VIA) and I have much better cards to replace out these integrated items. Dont care about onboard audio but it is as forced item on it.

Why are you writing about integrated audio/lan? It was not about it in my post.

Quote:
Fortunately my ASrock has good capacitors

How can you know it? I wouldn't be so sure. Don't get surprised if Asrock gets unstable after 2 years of use.

Quote:
But ok, can you in this case suggest me a motherboard what you think as quality one, but which has intel chipset, DDR or DDR2 memory support (dual channel mode!), and atleast 5PCI bus?

I would have to do some research... but it would be hard to find mobo with 5 PCI slots nowadays. In that case you're thrown back on Asrock perhaps.

Quote:
so far the specific ASRock fitted in this criteria (also dual channel memory mode).

Even if so, you shouldn't have a "oh what a great mobo having 5 pci slots!" attitude, but rather "well, too bad, but if there's nothing else, let it be".
Asrock is bad.

Quote:
and so far this "quality motherboard" term gets too fuzzy, can you atleast point out some things which will identify it as "quality mobo"...?

Good ones - Gigabyte, Asus, Abit, MSI. Bad ones - Asrock, ECS, Foxconn. It doesn't mean all of them are good/bad, but average good brand mobo is actually better than average bad brand mobo (in performance & stability terms). To find a good mobo, I would do some reasearch through rankings, tests, etc. but put my interest only towards good brand mobos.

Quote:
actually, there are much better expansion cards than the integrated items on these mentioned brands you named

I don't know why are you writing about it... this is not what we are talking about.
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Post Post #7285
Quote:

Quote:
Fortunately my ASrock has good capacitors

How can you know it? I wouldn't be so sure. Don't get surprised if Asrock gets unstable after 2 years of use.


capacitors from japan.


Quote:

Quote:
But ok, can you in this case suggest me a motherboard what you think as quality one, but which has intel chipset, DDR or DDR2 memory support (dual channel mode!), and atleast 5PCI bus?

I would have to do some research... but it would be hard to find mobo with 5 PCI slots nowadays. In that case you're thrown back on Asrock perhaps.

Quote:
so far the specific ASRock fitted in this criteria (also dual channel memory mode).

Even if so, you shouldn't have a "oh what a great mobo having 5 pci slots!" attitude, but rather "well, too bad, but if there's nothing else, let it be".
Asrock is bad.


with the _same_ chipset, the performance will be the same. But I need such amount PCI bus. Its just impractical even if I have the "BEST! Super!" mobo, but cant use it my way. OF course now I found the system which can expand the PCI bus amount but this device costs USD 2149 if I would like this expansion.

So, compromises have to made.

Quote:

Quote:
and so far this "quality motherboard" term gets too fuzzy, can you atleast point out some things which will identify it as "quality mobo"...?

Good ones - Gigabyte, Asus, Abit, MSI. Bad ones - Asrock, ECS, Foxconn. It doesn't mean all of them are good/bad, but average good brand mobo is actually better than average bad brand mobo (in performance & stability terms). To find a good mobo, I would do some reasearch through rankings, tests, etc. but put my interest only towards good brand mobos.


you are talking about brands but I asked what are the __signs that this mobo is quality__ if it is unlabeled. How to recognize it?

Take 2 mobos with thesame north and south chipset and measure the memory access speeds at first from different brands and measure. With the same chipset it must be very similar result. Then use the 2 mobos with somewhat better chipset, and run again the same test.

The same applies to ethernet cards which are manufactured on different brands but have _the same chip_.

And what makes that brand mobo good if to just left behind all the hype about brands and tests and that it is "made in japan". What else?!?.
Is it some special characteristics about BIOS?
Is it connectors layout?
Is it... whatever...

So, signs how to recognize the quality mobo....? Or only quality mobo is then server class mobo?

I have tested also the mobos. Conclusion still -- only chipset -- north and south bridge set counts in price, the remaining parts what are for next now is just optional. If you dont overload and overheat, then it will serve for years.

Quote:

Quote:
actually, there are much better expansion cards than the integrated items on these mentioned brands you named

I don't know why are you writing about it... this is not what we are talking about.


[/quote]

Sir! Most mobos in shop what you can get are equipped with VIA and IT series of HDD controllers and realtek network chip -- as cheapest solution. The better options (intel ethernet and adaptec HDD controller) are reserved for server boards, etc. BUT this chip you can also buy as expansion card (intel ethernet, adaptec controller). Smile
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Post Post #7286
The difference is manufacturing quality and components quality. Two MOBOs can have the same chipsets and so on, but a MOBO from renowned manufacturer will use better components, starting from mechanical quality of laminate and ending on selecting better (more expensive) components.

Cheap MOBO manufacturer will use components which are barely within the specs qualitywise or designwise. ASRock is "poor man's" ASUS, one cannot expect the technical (manufacturing) quality on the same level as ASUS MOBO.

Cheers,

Mac
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Post Post #7287
Discussion was held in IRC and I guess we (Krizz and I) resolved it.

Just special case:
suitable mobo as I have for this special needs, (which is good, practical)
but not the industry leading top shape newest model of mainboards, and there was no equal ASUS mobo (which is bad for Krizz, but no real threat to me and my preference _becouse_ of availability as I need such amount PCI slots)
and it needs maintainance possibly later but cant substitute with other mobo either in _this_ situation. (which is also bad for me)
but I have soldering iron for it and I can fix it! Razz (which is extreme and a little bit weird)

So, its weird this mobo is good solution to me only. Smile

Peace for all and see you on the next "conference" Very Happy


Last edited by SX001 on 2007-10-15, 2:50; edited 7 times in total
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